Tag Archives: long back

Front & Center

Barb Manson

Written by Barbara Manson

As you will recall, with the last article, we were standing at the front of the dog and examining the head.  Now it’s time to put our hands on his body to see if what our eyes have been telling us about him is really what he is.  Imagine a beautifully manicured and sculpted specials dog, perfectly stacked, in glorious flowing coat.  When we viewed him from the side, he appeared to have lots of forechest.  Now we’ll see if it’s an illusion of skillful grooming or if it’s the real deal.  We will not be fooled!

2015 North country
Photographer Bob Segal, 2015 North Country Specialty

Begin by running your hand from below the throat, down the front of the dog and between his front legs.  Note the pro-sternum.  It’s the prominent bump at the midline of the chest.  It’s the foremost point of the dogs body.  When viewed from the side, you will note that it arises at a level with, or slightly below, the point of juncture of the upper arm and the shoulder blade.  The standard says “Chest deep and not broad in front; the ribs well sprung, leaving plenty of lung room.  The chest reaches the elbows. A pronounced forechest is in evidence.”  The chest is an extension of the dogs body.  As you run your hand over this area, it should feel well developed and filled in, rather than as a hollow space between his front legs.  With your eyes, examine the dogs front feet.  Are they pointing straight ahead?  Is the handler having difficulty correctly stacking the front or is the dog having trouble maintaining that stack comfortably?  If the feet are pointing forward, and the dog is not toeing out, do the front feet appear to be rolling outward so the dog seems to be standing on the outside of his feet.  These are dead giveaways that all is not right with the front.  Most often this is caused by an underdeveloped chest, lack in depth of body or lack of spring of rib.  If the dog had these things, they would push the elbows outward and away from the body, so the front feet would be in proper alignment.  I should note here that this is not to be confused with the natural tendency of dogs, in a relaxed position, to toe out slightly.  Most will do this and, by itself, should not be cause for concern, though we would prefer not to show it to the judge in the ring.  Many puppies also go through developmental stages where this is common.

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Photographer Bob Segal, 2015 North Country Specialty

 

Put your hand on the dogs body directly behind the elbow and note the depth of body.  The body, or brisket, should reach the elbow.  In practice, I’ve know some Gordons where the depth of body actually extended a little beyond the elbow.  Next, run your hand along the upper arm and the shoulder blade.  Is there approximately equal length from the point of the upper arm, down to the back of the elbow and from, once again, the point of the upper arm to the shoulder, to create the “90 degree angle” called for in the standard?  If you have these things, this dog will stand, when correctly stacked, with his front legs under his withers.  Imagine him, for a moment, without all the coat.  Let’s say you found that proper, well developed forechest and this dog has the correct front angles.  Because of these things, a “pronounced forechest will be in evidence”.  You felt it and if he didn’t have the coat, you could easily see it.  Given his angles, and substance, it will appear to be greater than that of the pointer.  In practice, and for the purpose of discussion, these aspects are often collectively referred to as the front piece and assessed as a unit rather than separately as forequarters and chest.  All the individual pieces are interrelated and responsible for how the front assembly functions.

 

Now, let’s turn our attention to the top line.  Step away from the dog and position yourself a few feet away, looking squarely at his profile.  Spend a minute or two assessing him.  Note his neck, “long, lean and arched to the head”.  If he is short on neck or his neck does not flow seamlessly into the topline (back) there is a problem with the shoulder.  Is the topline “moderately sloping” to the tail?  The standard calls for the loin to be “short and broad and not arched”.  The line from withers to croup should be solid, flat and straight. The standard calls for the croup to be nearly flat, with only a slight slope to the tailhead”.  The tail is an extension of the back. The standard says ” short and not reaching below the hocks”.  Notice the length of body.  The standard says the body should be “short from shoulder to hips”.  We are looking for a dog who appears to be about as long as he is tall.  At this point I will caution you not to let your eye wander to his rear extension.  On a well angulated dog, there is a tendency to be fooled on body length by what’s behind him and how far his handler has stretched his rear.  Look only at his height and his back to determine length of back.

North Country
Photo by Bob Segal 2015 North Country Specialty

So why is the topline so important?  Years ago, I attended a seminar given by Dr. Quentin Laham.  He was an expert on canine structure and movement.  He always brought with him a skeleton of his German Shepherd, who he maintained, when he was alive, was an excellent example of his breed.  In Dr Laham’s opinion, the back was the foundation on which the rest of canine structure was built, and I believe he was right.  Without soundness, our dogs cannot do the job they were bred to do.  With long backs, you can see toplines sag over time.  There is a natural dip in the center of the back which is the area affected.  There are exceptions to this though and I’ve known a few.  I’ve also known of many where this scenario played out and was indeed the case.  Short backs tend to be strong backs.  If you look at the skeletal photo provided in one of the early articles, you can see the natural dip followed by a rise and slight arch of the lumbar vertebrae over the loin.  The dip provides the dog with flexibility of the back for movement.  You can imagine how this is used if you think of the dog at a full gallop.  This area of the back and the loin are covered with muscle in a sound, fit and fully mature specimen of the breed, which lends itself to the flawless topline we are looking for.

North Country digger
Photo by Bob Segal, 2015 North Country Specialty

The tail should be straight.  I believe an older version of the standard made reference to “collie tails”.  Obviously we’ve made improvements because I haven’t seen one in years, but they are still back there.  We used to see more long tails and they were most generally found on long backed dogs.  The standard calls for the tail to “not be docked, thick at the root and finishing in a fine point”.  It’s common to dock the tip of the tail of a puppy born with a kink.  This can be done for aesthetic reasons or for the health of the puppy because, in the case of a tight kink, it can leave the pup open to skin infections at the site.  A judge running his hand down the tail and measuring it against the hock can easily tell the “fine point” is not there if the tail is docked.  We will talk more about tail carriage when movement is discussed in the future.  Of note to exhibitors, Gordon tails are to carried “horizontal or nearly so”, so when hand stacking your dog, keep this in mind.  This was definitely something I needed to work on!

75% Genes Fit
MY GENES FIT!  Artwork by Diane Nowak

I hope many of you are heading to Ohio for the National.  Please make note of our GSCA Breeder Education “Hands On” at the show site to be held Wednesday May 11, exact time to be determined.  We will be going over dogs and critiquing for positive attributes only.  Also, at various times throughout the National  and during  the Hands on Program we’ll be measuring heights and comparing to weight for our “My Genes Fit” program demonstrating the variance in size that is correct in the Gordon Setter breed. Bring your dogs by to participate and earn your dog’s fabulous My Genes Fit tags.

We invite everyone to drop by and bring a dog if you have one.  See you in Ohio!2016-national-logo

Barbara Manson, Stoughton WI

Photographer – Bob Segal , Chicago IL

Please note: The photos in this article are provided for your viewing pleasure and are not intended to illustrate any fault mentioned in the article.

The Substantial Gordon

Here it is! The second in a series of articles by our Guest Blogger – Barbara Manson, Stoughton WI. Once again Barb shares insight about the Gordon Setter breed standard helping us to to put the words of the standard into perspective as it pertains to the many “styles” of Gordon we encounter.

The Substantial Gordon

Barbara Manson - photo by Silvia Timmermann 2014 GSCA National Specialty
Barbara Manson – photo by Silvia Timmermann 2014 GSCA National Specialty

by Barbara Manson

I want these articles to follow some kind of natural progression in regards to the way we normally assess our Gordons.  Once again, I’m targeting primarily the folks new to the sport but I hope everyone takes the time to read through this.  It is my intention to  provide a basis for later discussion and for mentoring our “newbies”.

If you asked anyone in Gordons to define substance, the conversation would always begin with bone.  This is the easiest part of substance to see.   Often we tend to look at big feet and the size of the forelegs and compare our dog, who seems well endowed, to a competitors dog who is smaller and who doesn’t appear to have as much as our boy does.  But, let’s stand back for a minute and really evaluate each dog rather than comparing them.  When evaluating the amount of bone, you have to take into consideration the size of the dog you are looking at.  Our standard describes “a good sized, sturdily built black and tan dog, well muscled, with plenty of bone and substance”.  I discussed size a couple of months ago and we know, as per standard, the boys can range from 24-27 inches at the withers and bitches can be 23-26 inches.  Those animals at the bottom of the standard are every bit as correct as those at the top and no preference as to size is stated in the standard.  Therefore, a 24 inch boy and a 23 inch girl are considered “good sized” in terms of height.  It would logically seem that the size of the feet and limbs on a 24 inch dog would not be what you would expect to see on a 27 inch dog.  By standing back and evaluating the individual, you get a better perspective.  Does the smaller dog look like his bone is big for his height?  Perhaps, the impression you get by evaluating in this manner will leave you with the feeling he has more bone than your own dog.  The amount of bone an individual dog has should always be evaluated in proportion to his height.  Here’s another point related to bone we need to consider.  In most species, there are gender differences as to size between males and females.  This, per standard, is also relevant to to Gordon Setters.  In other words, dogs should look like dogs and bitches should look like bitches.  In our breeding, we all will occasionally get a dog who looks a bit “bitchy” or a bitch who looks “doggy”.  We should not be striving for either.  One should know instantly whether he is looking at a dog or bitch without feeling for testicles.  The girls should never be expected to carry as much bone or head as their male counterparts, or vice versa.  The head piece should, first and foremost always fit the body.  I admit to personally being a sucker for a feminine Gordon head on the girls.

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This dog is bred by Debbie Cournoyer, NY. Photo by Lisa Croft-Elliot was used in a book published in the UK. Gordon Setter by Lavonia Harper.

The standard describes “plenty of bone and substance”.  So what constitutes substance.  There are several descriptive words and phrases in the standard that are meant to give the impression of substance.  “Weight for males 55-80 pounds; females 45-70 pounds.  The weight-height ratio make him heavier than the other setters.”  Nowhere in the standard does it say the Gordon is the tallest of the setters.  In fact, the “ideal” height for a male Irish Setter is 27 inches at the shoulder, which is considered the top of the range for a Gordon.  It follows that the impression of size in Gordons must come from other factors.  So what are these factors?  Once again, we look to the standard.

Body
“Body – short from shoulder to hips.  Chest – deep and not too broad in front; the ribs well sprung, leaving plenty of lung room.  The chest reaches to the elbows.  A pronounced forechest is in evidence.  Loins short and broad and not arched.”

Forequarters
“The angle formed by the shoulder blade and upper arm bone is approximately 90 degrees when the dog is standing so the foreleg is perpendicular to the ground.  Forelegs – big boned, straight and not bowed.  Pasterns are strong, short and nearly vertical with a slight spring.”

Hindquarters
“The hind legs from hip to hock are long, flat and muscular; from hock to heel, short and strong.”
The short body (short back) not only gives the impression of strength, but is a stronger back, less likely to breakdown over time.  As our dogs age, top lines tend to sag.  This is especially prevalent in a longer backed dog.  If we are using our Gordon in the field as they were intended, or for performance events, we want them to be sound into old age.

When viewing the dog from the side we should see a pronounced fore-chest.  This is the 90 degree angle formed from the top of the shoulder blade (scapula) or withers, to the upper arm (humerus) to the back or point of the elbow.  The upper arm should be approximately the same length as the shoulder blade, allowing for the front legs to be set well under the body with the elbow in an approximate line with the top of the wither.  The angle formed, ideally, should be about 90 degrees (please reference the drawing).  The front structure is one of those characteristics that defines a setter and sets them apart from other pointing breeds.  Hence, it is also very important to breed type.  I hope to discuss this further in the future.  The more front angle you have, the more the appearance of substance.  In the conformation ring, you may not be able to discern exactly how much fore-chest a dog has without putting your hands on him.  Skillful trimming can give him the illusion of more front, even when he doesn’t have enough.

The loin is the portion of the topline from the last rib to the sacral vertebrae or the area encompassing the lumbar vertebrae.  When viewed from the top, it should appear broad and substantial.  From the side, it should be relatively short.  The body should be deep, with brisket, or body, reaching to the elbow.  There should be sufficient spring of rib so the dogs body, when viewed from over the top, has dimension and definition, and does not appear as a long narrow tube.  When looking from the top, you should be able to see where the ribs end and there should be an indentation where the loin begins.  The tube look is often referred to as “slab sided” and is a look far too common in Gordons.  A breeder friend once referred to dogs like this as “cardboard cut out dogs”.  I found this very descriptive.

Short pasterns and short hocks are indicative stamina and not speed.  Compare the length of the hock in a Gordon to that of a sight hound such as the whippet or greyhound which were bred for speed.

Short pasterns and short hocks are indicative of stamina and not speed.  Compare the length of the hock in a Gordon to that of a sight hound such as the whippet or greyhound which were bred for speed.  We often hear the term wide thigh when referring to Gordon structure.  When viewed from the side, the thigh muscle should look “wide” and developed and when viewed from the back, we should see muscle definition on an adult, conditioned dog.  In general, when comparing Gordons to other breeds of setters, they should appear to have shorter, thicker musculature which leaves the impression of endurance rather than speed and this is most apparent in the rear muscling.  These shorter, thicker muscles require a heavier structure or frame for muscle attachment, hence we should see more bone on a Gordon than on an Irish who has longer, thinner muscles and a longer hock.  Both of these features are indicative of more speed.
The descriptions above are applicable to adult dogs and not necessarily to pups and adolescents.  If you are just getting started in this sport with a young show pup, be aware that it takes time for the youngsters to fully mature and accurate assessments are sometimes difficult, if not impossible on babies.  Also know that none of our dogs are perfect.  This information is intended to improve our understanding of the ideal and give us a basis for evaluating our breeding stock as well as sizing up the competition at the show.

Once again I encourage any feedback or clarification you may have to offer on this subject.  I want to encourage everyone to be involved in breeder education and your comments are welcome.  Please have them to Sue Drum by October 12th for the November News.

(If you are not a GSCA member or would prefer, you may enter your comments here on the blog as these will also be reviewed along with those submitted through the club venue.)

Barb Manson
Kilernan@yahoo.com.

Moving Toplines

I sure hope I’m still on good terms with my guardian angel because I’m about to walk barefoot on hot coals. Now folks, before I move on, you need to know, I love my fellow breeder/exhibitors and am not, in any way, shape, or form finding fault with anyone’s breeding or dogs. What I do intend  is to help newbies learn what more experienced breeders and judges see as they wade through a class of Gordon Setters or sort through a litter of puppies. So bear with me, and know that I’ve randomly chosen from a huge group of photos. I did the best I could to crop those photos to prevent identification, so if you spot your own dog and don’t like the way it looks…KEEP QUIET…you can pretend it’s not your dog and no one will be any wiser! Also, everyone needs to remember that this is one shot, a blink of the eye, this particular dog may actually move beautifully but in the instant that the shutter snapped something not so great may have been captured…remember all those awful photos your mother took of you when you were little? And finally, I’m asking all my photographers to forgive me for not identifying their work in this particular article, there are those who would go hunting through Facebook photos and the like to try to figure out which dog belongs to who, and our purpose is to educate, not to find fault!
     Well, now that I’ve filled a page creating a disclaimer hoping to survive yet another day, let’s move on to the subject itself, learning to understand the breed standard and apply it to a living, moving Gordon Setter. I decided to start the movement discussion with what I consider to be the easiest thing for everyone to see when watching a class of dogs move, that being the topline. The topline can tell you so much about what’s going on under the dog as far as the reach and drive we expect to find. A properly moving Gordon Setter will display a good moving topline and a good topline is an indicator of balanced angulation front to rear. Remember, we are not talking about the dog’s topline standing still, we want to learn to look at that topline while the dog is moving.
     If a Gordon Setter has a proper front assembly and a proper rear structure with corresponding angulation that is in balance on both ends, the topline will appear as one smooth, moderately downward sloping line that literally appears to be floating around the ring. By looking at the topline first you will soon learn where to look next for good reach and drive under the dog. Dogs who move carrying the correct topline will be the ones most likely to exhibit the correct reach and drive underneath the body. If, for example, you see a dog moving high in the rear,  you are likely to notice that they lack reach in the front, the rear being over angulated as compared to the front, rises as the dog must compensate somewhere to keep his hind legs on their forward drive (with their longer stride) from striking the front legs (because of their shorter stride). A dog who roaches, or arches over the loin may do this because of improper or unbalanced angulation or because of improper structuring of the back. Generally the Gordon Setter, like many breeds, will have a front assembly that lacks proper structure more often than the rear, but that my friends is a story for a different day.
     So first some quick excerpts from the Gordon Setter Breed Standard to remind you of some things we should be looking to find during our topline study.
     “Topline moderately sloping… Body short from shoulder to hips. Loins short and broad and not arched. Croup nearly flat, with only a slight slope to the tailhead. Tail short… carried horizontal or nearly so…The placement of the tail is important for correct carriage. When the angle of the tail bends too sharply at the first coccygeal bone, the tail will be carried too gaily or will droop. The tail placement is judged in relationship to the structure of the croup.Gait: A bold, strong, driving free-swinging gait. The head is carried up and the tail “flags” constantly while the dog is in motion. When viewed from the side, the forefeet are seen to lift up and reach forward to compensate for the driving hindquarters. The hindquarters reach well forward and stretch far back, enabling the stride to be long and the drive powerful. The overall appearance of the moving dog is one of smooth-flowing, well balanced rhythm, in which the action is pleasing to the eye, effortless, economical and harmonious.”
     Now let’s move on to look at some moving photos to see if we happen to agree on the things that stand out.  Let’s also remember, this is what the judge sees on that first go-round, many a win is earned on the first impression.
topline9
Moving high in the rear, tail is set low off the croup which is angled too steeply cause the tail carry lower, also notice the break in midway in top-line. Is this dog balanced front to rear?
topline7
Slight roll over the shoulder, moving high in the rear with a low tail set due to improper angle of croup.
topline26
Nice strong top-line, all parts fitting smoothly together, angle of croup is nearly flat resulting in tail carried straight off the back.
topline25
Nice strong top-line with no bumps or dips, croup angled correctly allowing tail carriage straight off the back.
topline20
Top-line looks fine, level back, good tail carriage, proper croup, would like to see a bit more slope to the top-line but it’s level or nearly so.
topline23
All parts fit well here, this is a good strong top-line, croup and tail set are good.
topline17
This top-line has improper arch (roaching) over the loin, croup angled a bit steeply resulting low tail set.
topline15
This puppy’s gives us a level back but unfortunately it drops off  sharply in the croup and results in a low tail set.
topline10
Angulation is not balanced front to rear resulting in top-line that moves high in the rear, also a drop to the croup, tail-set is too low resulting in a tail carried higher than we would want to see.
topline8
Top-line rises over the loin (roaching).
topline12
Moving high in the rear.
topline16
Nice level, strong topline with tail straight off the back. Would like smoother fit of neck to shoulder.
topline1
Here is another Gordon with slightly less angulation in the front as compared to the rear which results in a top-line that goes high in the rear, arching.
topline
This top-line looks soft in the back, see the swayback look to the top-line as it goes higher in the rear. The croup is too steeply angled causing an improper tail set.
topline3
Not a very good angle for this shot but top-line appears decent though a bit higher in the rear.
topline4
Good topline, smooth fit into shoulder, strong level back, with tail set straight off the back as croup is properly angled.
topline5
Neck and shoulder need to fit together a bit more smoothly, top-line is nice and level until reaching the croup which is too steep causing tail set to be too low.
topline6
This top-line showing a dip and a slight arch over the loin.

Time for all of you to chime in with questions, comments, or additions to the information this is meant to be a quick easy lesson and by no means covers all we need know about movement and structure, that’s what the comment boxes are for…share your input and ask your questions!

Sally Gift